Rick Santorum: JFK's 1960 Speech "Made Me Want to Throw Up"

Our FF knew that we are not and never could be a single required religion nation. They had just come from areas that fought for generations for the currently correct belief system dictated by the head of the state's wishes. Most often these were dictated for political or monetary reasons. Freedom from a religious government has made us strong because all can be included to add their strenghts regardless of their religion.

kick the bustard under the bus and move on...

Do what Pennsylvania voters did to him in 2005 - JUST SAY NO!

I think a lot of people are missing the most important point here:

Kennedy mentioned the separation of church and state in his speech primarily because evangelical christians were saying the Kennedy (who was our first Catholic president) WOULD BE TAKING HIS MARCHING ORDERS FROM THE POPE.

Religious bigots used that argument to try and prevent is nomination (primarily the Southern Baptist Dixie Democrats) in the Democratic primary and then Nixon and the Republicans picked it up and used it in the general election. He said it in an attempt to allay their fears and show that his loyalty was to his country first and foremost and not to his religion.

In short, Kennedy's response in 1960 to the religious bigots who were claiming that religion would influence his governance is now being used by religious bigots to claim he wasn't sufficiently religious.

I think that's right. It's interesting - Santorum's Catholic but he didn't mention being ticked off Kennedy didn't take marching orders from the Pope.

For anyone younger than 40, it's hard to explain the extreme power the Catholic church had at the time over all of Christianity and the US social agenda as an extension of that. I'm imagining as well that Christian Protestant denominations in this context greatly welcomed Kennedy's statements.

I forgot to mention the most ironic part: Santorum himself is Roman Catholic.

Now I see markpup already brought that up.

Good catch.

What's strange is that I see very few righties actually defending him.

Yet somehow people must still be voting for him in these polls/primaries.

Who are these people, and why don't they defend him? Are they ashamed to admit they support him?

Yes, they are ashamed to admit to admit they support him, much like Bush supporters were afraid to admit they supported him.

ONLY people afflicted with TERMINAL IDIOCY support santorum. righrwingnutreligionazis

I don’t believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute.

And remember when he wants to cross the line by playing this hand, it might not end up the way the religious right wants. It might not be religion telling government what to do but could be government deciding how religion is practiced. Be careful Santorum, you are walking a very fine line. You're just not smart enough to know it.

markpup

For anyone younger than 40, it's hard to explain the extreme power the Catholic church had at the time over all of Christianity . . .

Until the Reformation, Christianity was small 'c' catholic meaning universal. After the Reformation uprising against the existing catholic church, the church was split into Catholic and Protestant.

The Protestant Reformation was a 16th-century split within Western Christianity initiated by Martin Luther, John Calvin and other early Protestants. The efforts of the self-described "reformers", who objected to ("protested") the doctrines, rituals and ecclesiastical structure of the Roman Catholic Church, led to the creation of new national Protestant churches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

and then split again into orthodox and roman sects

They have kinda already done that, it is called Christian Fundamentalists, they are searching for a more purer form of religion. That's why Santorum has said that some protestant religions were under Satan's influence. If the American people allow these self righteous, holier than thou politicians get into place, I would predict a religious schism occurring in the US in the next 20 years.

After the Reformation uprising against the existing catholic church, the church was split into Catholic and Protestant.

Actually, the Roman and Orthodox churches split in the 11th century, long before Luther.

People conveniently forget that Christians, Jews, and others fought against slavery based on their religious beliefs. Santorum would be better off to confine his observations to things of that sort--that organized religion has often been a force for good in American politics. But that is people voting and working toward aims that they got from their faith, not directly imposing faith on government. For instance, I was both prolife and anti-death penalty as an atheist and I continue to be prolife as a person who is now an ethical monotheist. I would never say, "Do such and such just because it's in the Bible/Torah/Qu'ran/Gita/Sutras." And I would hope no American president would, either.

As for his personal religious beliefs, why does Santorum imagine anybody cares, any more than we care what he and his wife do in bed? (Not pleasant to imagine.) He's not running for bishop of the Pittsburgh Archdiocese, but for president. If he really lived in Western PA as he once fraudulently pretended to, I would tell him to his face to put some Tabasco sauce on his feet to keep them out of his mouth.

The South claimed that God was on their side during the American Civil War and the Southern Baptist Church was at least unofficially the church of Jim Crow and the KKK.

The KKK were also active against Jews and Catholics. Christian Identity groups go even further in blurring the line between Neo-Nazism and Christrianity.

Just saying.

OomYaaqub

Everything you say is the absolute truth.

I would qualify one thing you stated, however:

People conveniently forget that Christians, Jews, and others fought against slavery based on their religious beliefs.

Not all Christians, Jews, and others fought against slavery. Some did. Others among them did not. Other than that, I am in complete agreement with you.

Can we have an AMEN?

This is what he believes in:

wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_dei

He is Opus Dei, radical right wing Catholicism.

BUt...but...but we NEED to have Ricky as the RETHUG nominee. The campaign costs will be MUCH lower and there will be no LOSS from throwing santorum under the bus (FOR GOOD - stick a stake in that worthless vampire's heart and move on)

Ambivalent

He is Opus Dei, radical right wing Catholicism.

If he's not already a card-carrying member, it's only because his application hasn't been approved yet.

Mr. Santorum, you don't believe in America.

Neither does the President. You think the recent birth control fiasco doesn't violate the free exercise clause of the first amendment?

Whether the Administration's edict on the provision of contraceptive services violated the free expression clause is debatable. Also debatable is the treatment of constitutional rights when they apparently conflict and whether that free expression is compromised when the entity in question takes taxpayer dollars for the provision of its services. But in the case to which you refer, the President provided a solution that Catholic authorities found acceptable.

As usual, Oom, you attempt to deflect the point of the seed with the puerile "they did it too" fallacious equivalency.

Contrary to the twisted perspective of Mr. Santorum - the subject of this seed last I checked - the separation of church and state IS absolute.

Funny that many states have had the very same birth control provisions for more than a decade, and no one challenged it as the retugs have when President Obama took the same action.

The best part is that Kennedy mentioned the separation of church and state in his speech because bigots were trying to use his Catholicism against him and were claiming that "he would be taking his marching orders from the pope". Now Santorum, who is also Catholic, is trying to say that Kennedy wasn't sufficiently religious.

Is Santorum actually saying that he WILL be taking his marching orders from the pope?

Hartvig Lein

Don't doubt that he will use any excuse to force his beliefs on the country. When a person is a fanatic, they do not understand co-existing with people who think different then they do.

Neither does the President. You think the recent birth control fiasco doesn't violate the free exercise clause of the first amendment?

Where was the uproar, where were the panels when my tax dollars were used to wage a pre-emptive war - in direct violation of my religious beliefs - against a sovereign nation?

No where, Crow. We had a few people who tried to speak up - like millions in New York and SF at marches, and they weren't covered very well. NewSpeak: War is Peace...

But in the case to which you refer, the President provided a solution that Catholic authorities found acceptable.

No, they didn't.

Who cares (besides some catholics) what the catholic authorities say???

I surely don't.

Catholic women don't care what they say. 98% of them use birth control of some sort. No more super-sized families in the pews.

but but but - the church needs that herd increased. More adherents = more $$ for the church. More brainwashed idiots contributing...

Yes Catholic authorities did find the compromise acceptable:

"We are pleased and grateful that the religious liberty and conscience protection needs of so many ministries that serve our country were appreciated enough that an early resolution of this issue was accomplished,"

Sister Carol Keehan, president and CEO of the Catholic Health Association.

"We were pleased when adjustments were made in the new requirements that would ensure conscience protections for religious institutions such as ourselves,"

Sister Anne Curtis - Sisters of Mercy of the Americas

"The announcement on Friday creates mechanisms to create even greater distance between Catholic institutions and contraception...I feel completely satisfied."

Stephen Schneck - Catholic University of America's Institute for Policy Research and Catholic Studies

The Catholic bishops are not the only authority.

98% of them use birth control of some sort. No more super-sized families in the pews.

And 100% of Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus sometimes sin or otherwise violate their faith. So what? It's not about that. For my entire fertile life I paid for my own birth control. Now my schizophrenic son's psychiatrist is fighting for the insurance company to pay for his antipsychotic medication,without which he cannot function. Which is more important? You can get a condom or foam at any Rite Aid 24/7. Barrier methods are safer than hormonal ones anyway and besides, they protect you against STD's. I thought "safe sex" was everybody's priority. But I should no more have to pay for YOUR pill than I do for your recreational beer or marijuana. Ditto for your Viagra. If you're THAT poor, suppose you get out of bed, get dressed, and start pounding the pavement in search of a job. Or start demanding that our candidates actually address the unemployment rate,

My wife took hormonal contraceptives for many years to suppress ovarian cysts that she had been getting since she was 12. And we've never had fewer than three jobs, and have had as many as five, between the two of us; but most of the time, that barely covers our rent, transportation, food, and professional expenses. Why should she have paid out of pocket for something that actually kept her from suffering other health problems? Doesn't seem that different from covering her thyroid medication.

Imagine if he was the nominee. Most sane Repubs, if there are any

If Sanctimonius becomes the nominee, that will be proof in itself that there are no sane repubs. Those with an iota of integrity will leave the party and become Independents.

Granted the guy's crazy; there are also a lot of people who feel like he does. How are they going to react if he loses? Are we going to see fundamentalist Christian suicide bombers in the future?

It wouldn't take many.

God, Please hurry up with the Rature

catholics don'T DOo rapture. That's for an entirely different looney bunch of fundys

I was thinking of all the nuts that believe Rick S. that aren't catholics

concerned-in-ohio

I was thinking of all the nuts that believe Rick S. that aren't catholics

Evangelical Dominionists are of the same mindset. They are all theocratic fascists.

You did understand what I was saying, Thanks

Ahhhh - the "bachman/perry effect"...

canary-in-the-coal-mine

Ahhhh - the "bachman/perry effect"...

In essence, yes!

ask not what your can county can do for you, ask WHAT CAN SANTORUM DO TO YOUR COUNTRY?

BUT - I really want the goddamm bustard to be the RETHUG nominee

And not only a Catholic, but an EYE-talian Catholic the son of an IMMIGRANT, for Gawd's sake. That's asking a lot of the American electorate, Rick!

A very deep voice will be heard with heavy breathing sounds caused by years of inhaling Sulpher "Welcome .Ricky, I am your Father".

In PA, we know that Santorum isn't so much radical as he is your basic crook. He's a Catholic like the Godfather is a Catholic. Still, I have to admit that's a funny image.

the FF were 18th century. Santorum, and the rest, are earlier: 12th century. The FF were enlightened thinkers. This group of Rpubs are not even thinkers. They are regurgitators - of nonsense and scary talking points. If they thought at all at least one would realize what contradictory nonsense they are emitting from their, um, mouths.

except when telling religious organizations what to do. Your benefits are just that--you aren't automatically entitled to them. One of the things you consider when offered a job is what your benefits will be, and if you can't live with them, you don't take that job. It isn't really a contraception issue, this is just where it starts.

It would actually be better and probably more economical to just have a single payer system like much of the rest of the world. Yes, people would still be financing things they disapprove of via their taxes, but we all do that anyway. I didn't support the war in Iraq, for instance, put my taxes helped pay for it. (Or would have if we'd earned enough to owe federal income tax.)

We agree that single payer would have rendered this issue moot.

28 states require insurers that cover prescription drugs to provide coverage of the full range of FDA- approved contraceptive drugs and devices. (http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_ICC.pdf)

So why the hysterical objection now???

well, bully for them, but I have a schizophrenic teenager and I have to constantly fight the insurance company for those antipsychotic drugs that actually work. The psychiatrist is an immigrant who doesn't really "get" how to deal with those companies. When they won't even pay for essential drugs that prevent murder and suicide and hospitalization, how DARE they prioritize birth control pills even though barrier methods are very cheap, MUCH safer, and availalbe 24/7 at every drug store? How DARE they???? Don't you see why I'm angry? Sex can be delayed for a day even if you can't get to the drug store because of a snow storm or something. Believe it or not, it can. Take a cold shower for crying out loud. Psychotic reactions cannot be delayed except by the right drugs, which our fine insurance companies won't pay for. Our priorities are extremely screwed up. Don't say I could have aborted. Schizophrenia can't be detected prenatally even if I believed in abortion.

The only real health care reform is the total destruction of the evil for profit health insurance companies. If people want to pay for supplemental insurance, fine, but don't make it a requirement. That's just making the proverbial deal with the devil.

Oom - I agree, medical priorities are screwed up. I understand the torment, I am serotonin deficient which caused me to have severe panic disorder and some depression, thank goodness for SSRI's.

which, sadly, do not work for everyone, but I'm glad they worked for you. However, each patient is different and it is disgusting that they refuse to pay for drugs still under patent or ENOUGH drugs under patent or not when each person's biochemistry and correct dosage is different. I always required the maximum dose for my own depression so is it so amazing that my son does too? We just have the metabolisms we were born with. We aren't beomg greedy druggies. This stuff doesn't make you high! Trust me, I don't want him overmedicated. He is very bright and I don't want to interfere with that.

blue - it's called a knee jerk reaction.

The problem is that we already have a dictator who will soon tell us ALL that we have to buy a product sold by private, for profit companies. If Obamacare is so great, why did he delay it's implementation until AFTER he is safely re-elected? Santorum you can laugh at. Obama, not so much. They are already seizing the lunches of little kids in public school because they don't include a green vegetable. They are going after suppliers of medical marijuana even in states where it's legal. What evil, power mad jerks. I hate theocracy but Obama's brand of "we know what's best for you" -cracy is at least as bad.

They are already seizing the lunches of little kids in public school because they don't include a green vegetable.

Please provide evidence...or label as sarcasm.

It's a real story and was reported on the national news recently. The shocking part is that the child in question was only 4 or 5 and in kindergarten. (Some states allow 4 year olds into kindergarten.) The kid was not only robbed of her lunch and given a much less healthy one consisting of chicken nuggets, but made to feel that her mother was a bad person. Also the mother was billed for her lunch. I hope she sues and collects million.

Link please.

Yes, provide the link to that one.

I noticed you originally stated

They are already seizing the lunches of little kids in public school

Implying that this happened to more than one child and on a regular basis...as a matter of practice (they, lunches, kids)

But in #13.3, you described an isolated incident that happened to one child, and you still have not provided a valid, credible link (Fox News doesn't count).

Rather disingenious to engage in fear-mongering and misrepresentation.

I can't find anything on it.

http://sandhills.news14.com/content/653817/hoke-county-preschooler-s-lunch-taken-away-by-state-official/

Post# 13.1 - The problem is that we already have a dictator who will soon tell us ALL that we have to buy a product sold by private, for profit companies. If Obamacare is so great, why did he delay it's implementation until AFTER he is safely re-elected? Santorum you can laugh at. Obama, not so much. They are already seizing the lunches of little kids in public school because they don't include a green vegetable.

From the link in Post# 13.6 -

According to the Carolina Journal, her mother packed a turkey sandwich, potato chips, a banana and apple juice. But the girl's mother says a state official at West Hoke Elementary School made her daughter buy chicken nuggets instead and sent the bill home saying her lunch didn't meet USDA guidelines.

The North Carolina Division of Child Development and Early Education says it did not have an employee or contractor in Hoke County involved in replacing any child's lunch.

"The Division of Child Development and Early Education has a policy to ensure that each child has access to nutritious meals," they said in a statement. "Our policy is to provide access to food, not to take food away."

The Department of Health and Human Services is looking into the case.

I don't see what President Obama and/or his policies have to do with this case. They said it was a STATE OFFICIAL that took her lunch away but The North Carolina Division of Child Development and Early Education says it did not have an employee or contractor in Hoke County involved in replacing any child's lunch. This all sounds very suspicious and most likely untrue.

I can only assume you don't have a child in public school if you disbelieve this story. In the first place, most teachers are bimbos. They go into the education field because they can't do everything else. Everyone really knows this. Most liberals would be horrified if their daughter said she wanted to be a teacher.

In the first place, most teachers are bimbos. They go into the education field because they can't do everything else. Everyone really knows this. Most liberals would be horrified if their daughter said she wanted to be a teacher.

Paint with a wide brush, don't you?

That's an amazing blanket condemnation of teachers, but only your bitter opinion. No, everyone really doesn't know that teachers go into education because they can't do anything else, though that is usually said by those who have never taught--and probably couldn't for a whole host of reasons.

As usual, your comment is misogynistic (like so many others you make) referring to teachers as "bimbos" and identifying daughters wanting to become teachers.

But let's talk about teacher wanna-bes. You have stated many times in your anecdotal testimonies that you could have been a teacher (doubtful; you do not have a license or certificate; you say you have a bachelor's degree in science, but that doesn't get you into a classroom) and you home school your kids. So maybe your screed is more a reflection of what you want to be, but cannot?

My own experience with kid's teachers is they get 3 or 4 of them that make the whole thing worthwhile and the rest - well I wouldn't use the word "bimbo" especially since I'm a guy, but they're generally dead time for the kids that sit in their classes.

Last month my friend's 8th grader was eating a dish of ice cream and one of her teachers just grabbed it out of her mouth and threw it in the trash. Most parents have stories of times when things like this happened to their kids and if I start a conversation around that - throw that little bit of red meat out there - the conversation goes on quite a while. This national incident where the teacher threw the kid's food away - that's the one that made the news.

To oomyaaqub - I think you're right most of the time about teachers, but there's incredible notable exceptions. It's a pleasure when your kid gets one of those and they're out there. Probably less than 20%, but they're connected with kids and know how to present things in such a way the kids want to know more. The only problem on that which I've heard from teachers I think are this class is the curriculum requirements and bureaucracy drag everything down - teachers these days have to stay very close to requirements. Creativity clearly suffers.

Most liberals would be horrified if their daughter said she wanted to be a teacher.

I wonder how many know that one of RFK's sons is a teacher.

Most liberals would be horrified if their daughter said she wanted to be a teacher.

Yeah, not sure where that crazy thinking came from. It would seems that educators, who are often themselves characterized as liberals, would certainly be proud that their children chose a profession not for money, but to make a difference.

I would think conservatives would be horrified if their children wanted to teach, especially since the right has clearly shown such a propensity toward ignorance...and the very nature of teaching aims to change that.

The entire GOP philosophy is based on wilful ignorance, that is why they started defunding schools back under Ronnie and have continued the war on education through to the present. Now it is becoming a "for profit" endeavor where their cronies can make money of something that was once a model for the world. During this time the third world countries had for profit education and only those that could afford it got it, the GOP is trying to push this country back to the stone ages and this is one of the ways they are achieving their goal.

This works out well for the religious right, they don't have to send their kids to public school where they learn science and logic, causing many to question the myth, legend and lies they were told in church. Now they can be blissfully ignorant, without any opposing opinion or fact interfering with their religious zealotry.

Most liberals would be horrified if their daughter said she wanted to be a teacher.

I'm going to have to assume that was meant tongue-in-cheek.

No,it wasn't. Only idiots go into this field. As a homeschooling mom with a degree in a real field (biology) I was way more qualified to teach my kids than some moron with an education degree.

You are entitled to be incorrect in your views, but if you knew anything about educational requirements, you would know that, depending on what they teach, educators' content course requirements differ little from those in Arts & Sciences. Of course, that differs for those who teach elementary or middle school.

You have said many times that you could have been a teacher, but the truth is that you are not qualified. So now you say anyone who is an educator is an idiot or a moron? Give it up; your comments and practice as a home schooler are indicative of someone who Is a teacher wanna-be, but isn't qualified or able to do the real job.

I am always amazed at those people who are foolish enough to criticize teachers and education just because the went to school. I've driven a car for more than 40 years, but know enough to trust a qualified service provider to make it run. Those who are not qualified as educators should consider that analogy when they criticize teachers.

OomYaaqub - I can only assume you don't have a child in public school if you disbelieve this story. In the first place, most teachers are bimbos. They go into the education field because they can't do everything else. Everyone really knows this. Most liberals would be horrified if their daughter said she wanted to be a teacher.

Utter nonsense! However, we're all pretty familiar with the ignorance you spew all over the vine. Teachers are NOT bimbos. Teachers go into the education field because they truly love children and want the world to be a better place, they feel that can achieve it by educating our youth. Many could do a number of things yet choose to be teachers knowing it's a thankless job at times and doesn't pay very well considering the difficulties they face schooling other people children. I'm a liberal and have family members who are in college getting their degrees to teach, I am not horrified, I AM EXTREMELY PROUD of them!

Do not ASSume you know how liberals feel about their children or other family members OomYaaqub, you only continue to embarrass yourself, but what's new?

Yes, if you hasve a masters degree in a particular field that is something else, but I am talking about elementary ed which is universaly known to be for bimbos. Not everyone homeschools through high school anyway and many kids are already taking community college classes by that age anyway because our kids are so advanced. Nor do we all try to do it alone. Most people have a stereotype about homeschooling that has nothing to do with reality. We aren't a bunch of fundies and we don't keep our kids home so they can die for Jesus.

BTw, I can't think of a dumber reason to be a teacher than "I love kids." You should love LEARNING and want to give it to kids, not just love being in the presence of kids becauce you can't deal with adults. If you really love kids, stay home and raise your own instead of leaving them in a church basement all day. That is the greatest contribution you could make. Everyone really knows this.

BTw, I can't think of a dumber reason to be a teacher than "I love kids."

Yes because I couldn't think of a better reason to become a teacher than "I don't lke kids". /s/

Try rereading my post; "Teachers go into the education field because they truly love children and want the world to be a better place, they feel that can achieve it by educating our youth."

If you really love kids, stay home and raise your own instead of leaving them in a church basement all day. That is the greatest contribution you could make.

Yes because all mothers AND fathers, married or single parenting are independently wealthy and can afford to stay home with their children. They don't have to provide food, clothing, medical needs, and a roof over their heads. /s/

Pull you head out OomYaaqub!

Oom Yaaqub, you lose more credibility with each post. And that is assuming you had some. To post your opinion about elementary education, saying it is

universaly known to be for bimbos

is the height of arrogance from someone who is not qualified to do that job. But since it is universally known, go ahead and cite a credible, objective source that documents that position.

How would a degree in biology qualify you to teach to reading, writing, and mathematics to your home-schooled, primary-grade children? You were throwing darts at a moving target in the dark as far as that goes. You said that

Not everyone homeschools through high school anyway

so explain how a degree in biology is any qualification for what elementary and middle school children need? If anything, the biology degree might have helped a child in secondary eduation, but there is nothing that qualifies someone with a BS in Bio to teach the fundamentals that early learners need.

There is no school district in the nation that would hire someone with only a BS in Bio to teach in elementary. If a district did, that teacher would be removed as wholly unqualified for the job, as he or she should be.

do you have any ability to figure out wha tI wnet thgout in order to homeschool my kids? I never had a car. I live in a terible neighborhood even though I fell in love with it. I had nothing. Nothing. YOu have no idea.

No,it wasn't. Only idiots go into this field. As a homeschooling mom with a degree in a real field (biology) I was way more qualified to teach my kids than some moron with an education degree.

So you were a born prodigy in the field of biology? Learned it all at home did you? Get your degree out of a box of cracker jacks? The biology degree fairy?

do you have any ability to figure out wha tI wnet thgout in order to homeschool my kids?

That was your choice, so stop whining and looking for any sympathy. It has nothing to do with the crazy statements you have made about teachers. You spew grossly hateful opinions about professional educators and make blanket indictments:

• all elementary school teachers are bimbos;
• people go into the education field because they can't do anything else;
• liberals would be horrified if their daughters said they wanted to be teachers;
• only idiots go into education.

But you expect that no one should call you out on such pathetic opinions that you attempt to pass off as universal truths? Sorry, but no pass on such rancor and asperity.

I was way more qualified to teach my kids than some moron with an education degree.

Keep telling yourself and your kids that, but it doesn't make it true, no matter how much you wish it were so.

You hold a great deal of hatred for those who are qualified to teach and you hold yourself above those who are far more qualified to teach than you certainly are with your BS in Bio. Your rabid comments clearly show how delusional you are about education and how much hatred you direct at a whole profession about which you know little and in which you have even less qualification.

AMEN! Happy BLUE in Ohio!

No wonder her child is psychotic. The fruit may not fall far from the tree, but not even the best seeds grow well in toxic soil.

I don't know what she thinks her kid is going to do to post-secondary education. And if she has a degree in biology then teachers had to have done right by her at some point.

Home School=religious indoctrination aka brainwashing. The mantra of the ultra conservative, religious zealot.

If ones religious belief requires segregation from rational thinking people or isolation from the rest of the world, is that not a cult? Is their dogma so inane and contrary to rational thought that it requires a vacuum to grow?

I am amazed that she continued with such vehenment bashing of ALL teachers, yet held herself up as more qualified because she has a BA in Biology. In many states, teachers are required to hold a master's degree, and teachers' educational programs would have most definitely included couirsework in special education, even at the undergraduate level.

There's just so much to refute in all that she said, but her arrogance along with her blanket condemnations is beyond the pale. In my experience, it's folks like that who have long harbored a grudge against schools (often because teachers didn't recognize their "genius"). These same types also like to run for school board positions so they can "even the score" and put teachers in their places. A rather sad lot, they are...

So you were a born prodigy in the field of biology? Learned it all at home did you? Get your degree out of a box of cracker jacks? The biology degree fairy?

You're confusing college with elementary school here. Anyone can teach their child to read, write, do simple math, and learn basic history, geography, civics, and science. They can do a better job because of the individual attention and the fact that if one curriculum doesn't work, they are allowed to choose another. School teachers cannot do this and therefore they have more in common with a clerk typist than any actual professional. Many people who HATE school end up loving college. I was one. A professor of, say, physics isn't anything like a first grade teacher.

Actually the best teacher of yourself is yourself. My kids are autodidacts alhough the older one is in college to learn a particular profession. All I ever did was facilitate a little and give guidance, plus buy the books, software, etc.

I used to share my house with a woman who was getting a masters in social work. She partied a lot (not with drugs or alcohol, just parties) andn I asked her how she could do that and still maintain such a high GPA. She laughed and admitted her major was a "joke" and it was nothing like mine. A masters in education is also a joke. You barely have to crack the book. Come on, we all really know this.

Home School=religious indoctrination aka brainwashing.

Are you REALLY aware that there are Christian homeschoolers, Jewish homeschoolers, Muslim homeschoolers, Hindu homeschoolers, Buddhist homeschoolers, Pagan Witch homeschoolers (they have their own Yahoo group) and atheist homeschoolers? I used the same books the public schools do and never indoctrinated my kids. One of them is a Marxist, for crying out loud. He's asked for, and gotten, Marx's books for his birthday, including Das Kapital. Think I taught him that? Although I hope he'll outgrow it. One volunteered for a left wing candidate I personally disliked, but I supported him in this. A lot of brainwashing goes in in public school. Kids are now being taught to hate lumberjacks because they "kill trees". How silly is THAT? How silly are your prejudices, which are based on a total lack of knowledge about homeschooling?

The father of homeschooling was my sainted John Holt, who was very far to the left.

No wonder her child is psychotic.

Reported as personal attack. My son is schizophrenic because he has a schizophrenic paternal uncle and a maternal great uncle who murdered his family before killing himself. There is also depression on both sides of the family. It is genetic, and he got the double whammy, but it doesn't doesn't strike every member of a family, and it is no sense my fault. I have no choice about homeschooling him, which I never intended to do at his age. It is usually best for younger kids, who are then sent to a good private highschool.

I don't know what she thinks her kid is going to do to post-secondary education.

One is already in college and doing well. He plans to be a physical therapist, which is an excellent career. They can practice independently and earn six figures. (Look it up if you don't believe me.) He may go for physical therapy assistant first though (two year program) and do the other later, because the hospitals have tuition assistance. Even assistants start in the forties, a little less than an RN. My teenager I don't know about; he may need special care all his life, which nobody wants, but he is still a genius who taught himself to read and has read many, many great authors, starting from a very young age. He can just sit there and give you a college level lecture about one of his esoteric interests like the history of the Soviet Union, even though he totally understands that the country no longer exists in that form. I taught him none of this. The Carnegie Library and the Internet did.

all elementary school teachers are bimbos;
people go into the education field because they can't do anything else;
liberals would be horrified if their daughters said they wanted to be teachers;
only idiots go into education.

Not saying that and I apologize if you think I did. Nothing ever applies to ALL members of every group. Otherwise all Koreans would be brillant and all Jews would be lawyers and all Indians would be doctors. I know there are people who go into teaching for all the right reasons, but I have also seen some of them get frustrated and leave because they weren't able to do what they wanted. I sent my older son to a great, and BTW very secular, left wing high school. Those aren't my particular political values, but the educational values were what mattered and besides, he got a scholarship. There was a great teacher student ratio and that really, really matters, because you get the personal attention. Frankly, I think most teens need the social side of high school, although again, "most" doesn't mean "all". And I'm glad those people chose to be teachers. By the way, there was no band, no football team, no extracurrilar activities, not even a school library because we have a great public one down the street. There was no gym, they used public facilities which my city has in abundance, even a year round swimming pool. But the kids really made the best of it. A lot of them had their own garage band. There was a piano and I think my son donated his guitar.

Reported as personal attack.

Oom, your reporting a personal attack is like Jack the Ripper reporting an assault.

all elementary school teachers are bimbos;
people go into the education field because they can't do anything else;
liberals would be horrified if their daughters said they wanted to be teachers;
only idiots go into education.

Not saying that and I apologize if you think I did.

Rich.

Way to personal up in here...

Oom, your reporting a personal attack is like Jack the Ripper reporting an assault.

roflmao!!!!

Do you HONESTLY think it is okay to blame someone because her son is schizophrenic? People haven't believed that in DECADES. Schizophrenia is a genetic problem which causes abnormal brain chemistry. Bad parenting might exacerbate a condition like that but NEVER cause it. If they thought I had made my son a schizophrenic they would have taken him away.

Reminds me of the bathroom wall graffitti:

My mother made me a homosexual.

Great, if I buy her some wool, will she make me one too?

If ones religious belief requires segregation from rational thinking people or isolation from the rest of the world, is that not a cult?

Why on earth would you assume homeschoolers are isolated from the rest of the world? Some of us are never actually home because our kids are in so many outside activities, most of them self chosen. So "homesechooling" is kind of a misnomer. Also, as I just explained, it has nothing to do with religion. Actually nothing is more segregated than a public school. When will you EVER spend all day with people of the exact same age?

Right on, OomYaaqub! I honeschool my 14 year old daughter, and she is able to carry on conversations with all age groups, from 90 year olds on down to little toddlers, not just with her own age group. That's because she is exposed to a whole lot more people than she would be just sitting in a classroom with teens her own age. She does have plenty of friends her own age too, so it's good all the way around!

I actually don't object to homeschooling. But the blanket smear on teachers being advanced by a certain poster given to grand generalizations and profoundly sloppy reasoning is truly disgusting.

Personally I find it telling. You home school your child because he is too troubled from an organic disorder to go to school with other kids, nothing wrong with that. But what you appear to tell yourself, us, and I'm guessing your son as well is that you don't send him to school because all teachers are whores and a liberal parent would rather see their daughter on a stripper pole than want to become a teacher.

Okay, slight exaggeration. But not much of one.

Even a fundamentally healthy child will grow up to be batsh!t if they are exposed to a toxic enough environment. If these are your honest opinion and not you trying to sublimate your guilt, then I really have to wonder how much of a chance he ever had.

You'd think homeschoolers would be held to some level of standards, but that IS the charm is it not?

We have inhome services, and I would accept a teacher coming in too if this was available. (Maybe it is, but nobody told me.) I homeschool because he wants this AND he keeps his part of the bargain, which is doing his work. I have threatened to send him to school and been cursed for it. You know teenagers. He hates school as much as the hospital. And nobody can make themselves schizophrenic.

I would accept a teacher coming in too if this was available. (Maybe it is, but nobody told me.)

OMG, the person who is so much smarter than those whore teachers and you don't know whether an educational service is available for your child??? And you didn't think to ask/investigate??? How could that be? I can't imagine....For someone who knows so much more than everyone else and has all the answers, that's just beyond comprehension.

I have threatened to send him to school

Yeah, that's a good one. Make school a punishment. That's pretty telling about just what a toxic environment you've created.

You know. The more I think about it the scarier it gets.

Did you share your view that all teachers are whores with your child before or after he was diagnosed?

Maybe the thought honestly never entered your head, but school teachers are the very first authority figures we encounter who are not family members. It is through our interactions with them that we learn respect for authority which is mandatory for us to be functioning members of society. Respect for teachers becomes respect for employers and law enforcement.

And nobody can make themselves schizophrenic.

I didn't say schizophrenic. I said batsh!t. Nature plays a huge role in ones mental health. But so does Nurture. An environment doesn't have to be hostile to be toxic. And even without the excuse of schizophrenia, you bonzaied your child into becoming someone who has contempt for authority.

I have threatened to send him to school and been cursed for it.

He doesn't even respect YOU, and you sound proud of that fact. Congratulations. Mozol tov. A person doesn't have to schizophrenic to need to be put down like a mad dog. Contempt for authority is a really good first step down that road.

Bravo.

You're confusing college with elementary school here.

Most college professors start out teaching in the lower grades, so - really - what is the difference? And how is dear little junior supposed to tell the difference? Professors are teachers and all teachers are whores and have been since he was little, ergo all professors are whores. You going to homeschool him into a master's degree? A PhD? How is he supposed to even handle vo-tec? Good work.

Did you share your view that all teachers are whores with your child before or after he was diagnosed?

I never said a word against school. He did go to school for awhile. He had a male teacher who was very nice. I always assumed I would send my kids to school because everybody does and you take it for granted. However, he really, really doesn't want to go, more because of not wanting to be around other kids. It isn't a teacher issue, except that he ridiculed how "retarded" the curriculum was because he already knew that stuff.

Since when is it true that most professors start out as school teachers? Many of my professors had "real world" jobs and only taught part time at night.

He doesn't even respect YOU, and you sound proud of that fact. Congratulations. Mozol tov. A person doesn't have to schizophrenic to need to be put down like a mad dog. Contempt for authority is a really good first step down that road.

For crying out loud, he is mentally ill. He doesn't have the self control of a healthy person and on top of that he's 15. I was a total brat at that age and I'll bet you were, too. You thought you knew more than all the adults. I think it was Mark Twain who said he thought his father was a moron when he was 14 but at 21 he was amazed at how much his dad had learned in seven years.

Not liking school doesn't mean you have contempt for all authority, BTW. I don't have contempt for all authority. But my generation did have a slogan, "question authority", remember?

Maybe the thought honestly never entered your head, but school teachers are the very first authority figures we encounter who are not family members

Well, for many, it's the rabbi or the doctor or the daycare staff or the scout leader. MOST homeschooled kids are better behave than schooled kids. Your giving teachers way too much credit here.

Oom - I've been staying out of this thread on teachers, but some of the retort you have been getting regarding your son has been ridiculous and I'm going to call out these idiot's attacking your son.

Schizophrenia is a terrible mental illness. Untreated, this child could be a danger to himself or to others and they don't even realize there are dangers. Depending on the severity, they could hear voices, have delusions and have some other forms of mania. This illness doesn't get better, it usually gets worse as the individual ages. You may not agree with Oom's stance on teachers, but lay off of her child. Nobody wants their child to have this illness and the child defintiely didn't want this illness.

Most college professors start out teaching in the lower grades

Sorry, but most college professors have NO training as educators. They are content/discipline specialists and probably had no preparation at all for teaching. That's why so many of them lecture; they don't know how to do anything else.

Many of my professors had "real world" jobs and only taught part time at night.

If your INSTRUCTORS had full-time jobs during the day (BTW, teaching IS a real job, even for the whores as you call them and those who can't do anything else as you said), and only taught part-time at night, they would be adjunct instructors picking up some extra $$$ for teaching.

Professors who are working full-time in higher education enter of system of rank and promotion. In many institutions, this might also include tenure. Adjunct instructors are not the same as professors.

Again, I am shocked! Shocked, I tell you, that there is something Oom didn't know--especially about education.

I agree you are technically correct but I was speaking as most students do.

Not "technically" correct, just correct. Have the grace to acknowledge when you are wrong. It's not difficult to learn the correct term and say, "my instructors...."

That means that Rick the Quick was only two years old when he sat in front of the TV in his diapers, sucking on a pacifier and watching and absorbing the deep, constitutional philosophy inherent in Kennedy's speech. Perhaps the vomit was due to bad pablum rather than the speech. When we are young, we all suffer from mistaken understandings and transferrence. That, however, seems to be a condition of infancy that Ricky-boy has carried far into adulthood.

OMG, that was just excellent to check his age! What a hoot!

I did the same thing. Googled his age. "53". LOL

You only THINK he has mental issues?? I'm sure of it.

Politico, he didn't say he heard the speech in 1960! It was taped, remember? He probably studied it in law school, 20 years later.

You got a point, but I still think he has some serious mental issues...

No, as a Pennsylvanian I just think he has a big mouth. He says things that many agree with, but he puts them badly, leading to confusion. For instance, giving his personal opinion of the morality of contraception. Who the heck cares? Instead, people were left with the false impression that he wants to ban it for everybody. A politician who cannot communicate well is not going to be President.

Totally agree with that communication issue but I disagree that he is giving a false impression on wanting to push his views onto the American people. As Presdient I think that is just what he will attempt to do. Just as the tea party and republicans ran on creating jobs back during the 2010 midterms but once they obtained office, they began to push their big government agenda of abortion control and gay rights. This was their plan all alone, just saying they wanted to create jobs was a political ploy for votes because as we've seen, since being in office, they haven't done one thing to attempt to create jobs.... and their conversation is still on culture issues.... not job creation....

I'm sure he is often simply misunderstood. For instance, he has clearly stated that although he and his wife don't believe in birth control, he wouldn't ban them. But really, who the hell cares what his personal views are? Isn't this between himself, his wife, and his priest? He should simply shut up about this sort of thing, because it matters about as much as whether a Jew or Muslim eats pork. Abortion is a different matter, and it's simply a fact that a plurality of Americans want tougher restrictions on this as poll after poll has shown. As for gay rights, that's also basically a nonissue. For starters, I'm bi myself and never suffered real discrimination. (It never occurred to me to marry anyone of either gender until I was actually pregnant.) I once worked for a Hasidic rabbi who also had a gay male employee. I would readily admit that discrimination is worse against gay men. But it never bothered anyone in the least, since he was an employee valued for his skills, not his potential to be converted. Jews don't proselytize anyway.

I'm a non-Christian and I don't have that impression at all. I'm a lot more concerned about Obama's obvious anti-Semitism.

I'm a lot more concerned about Obama's obvious anti-Semitism.

I believe this comment to be utterly false. What evidence or proof do you have rather than your opinion to even suggest this?

.

What antisemitism???

What a crock of @!$%#...the only people that thinks he is being anti semetic are non (real) jews. It's what fox news keeps telling their jesus freak followers.

...and for the 100th time, jews for jesus/messianic jews ARE NOT JEWS!!!

Correct, Angry Left. Jews for Jesus need counseling, IMO. They are crazy people who cannot see that any support the evangelicals give Israel is because they want to promote Armageddon.

Nobody brought up Jews for Jesus but you. Just because I defend some Christians doesn't make me one. Obama hates Israel.

I love the IDEA of what Israel is and could be...I hate the right wing war hawk racist war criminals that run and support the place. The only reason the righties love it is because they believe in the "enemy of my enemies is my friend" rule....they just hate the muslims and they believe they would benefit by having Israelis die over their racist grudge...its easier to swallow than dead americans and it's easier to try to push them into war/killing than to push us into a war.

(jewish here (real jew))

Israel happens to be the only democracy in the Middle East and our only real friend there. If they are so racist, why are there Muslims in the Knesset and the Israeli Supreme Court? Why are Arab Israeli citizens better off than they would be in any Arab state? (Even my Muslim friends readily admit this.) People who condemn Zionism are usually the same socialists who condemn the United States.

Israel happens to be the only democracy in the Middle East

And why is this relevant? Just because the US touts democracy for every other nation?

Why are Arab Israeli citizens better off than they would be in any Arab state?

I have no problem condemning Zionism, but maybe we should ask Palestinians--the people without a country--about Israel's treatment of other Arabic people.

Palestinians could have had their own country in 1948, but were misled by horrible dirty rotten theives like Arafat. I have had Palastinian neighbors who were wonderful, very hard working, highly acheivement oriented people. They could rule the world if they lost their sick obsession with the destruction of Israel. From what I've seen, they are as smart as Jews, who have a ridiculously disproportionate number of Nobel Prize winners. My Palestinian neighbor helped me greatly and told me and my Lebanese roommate, when we had both had newborns,"we are all cousins because we are the children of Abraham." (Christians are considered children of Abraham by adoption, but Jews and Arabs are literal cousins.) She also ordered her husband to quit his job when she decided his health required it, and I frankly can't imagine any American woman regardless of her religion to order her husband to quit his job and for that husband to just meekly obey her. (Her husband also asked me sarcastically if my own husband was allowed to care for my baby because he never saw him do so.) Stereotypes are just as false whether the left or the right is furthering them.

It seems that no one has ever pointed out that making a judgment based on a sample of one (personal/anecdotal) case is a really poor approach/practice. The constant "personal" testimony means little to nothing in the big picture, and rates a response of "so what?"

Saying I knew oner Palistinian family was hardly the main point of my post. The historical fact is that they were offered their own country in 1948.

You gave 19 words to your main point (and certainly could/should have stopped there) and proceeded with 179 needless words in useless anecdote. Go figure....

Because I am an emotional woman and I truly loved my kind friends, for crying out loud. I'm sorry I brought them up. Somebody might recognize them and they don't deserve this. They were clearly incidental but didn't disprove my point.

LOL

best quest

Ron Paul was born August 20, 1935.. He is 76 years old. In 15 years he will be 91.

He is too old now to lead our country.

My Uncle suffers from alzhiemers. He too repeats himself over and over and over. If you don't see him everyday you don't know that.

Somebody should ask ron paul what he ate for break fast while he's eating his lunch. or ask him at breakfast what he had for supper last night. He probably doesn't remember.

i apologize for not writing very well. I was trying to convey that some of his ideas do find a willing, thoughtful audience with our younger people here.

I think this is aok, as they are interested in policies, ideas, and the results.

The better, effective and reasonable messages that Ron sends out will percolate over the years, get modified, and can be expected to have an effect in future legislation.

For example: The Fed being audited. Defending North America. Parents involved in their childrens education. Government doing those things that we cannot all by ourselves, alone or within the family.

During ww2, an upstate NY county had one superintendant and he had one secretary. He drove around from school to school and had an office telephone. Today, this same office has over 700 employees. Ron, or any fiscal conservative, could not possibly understand this need for so many administrators. They prefer a flatter, leaner organization and more dollars back into the teachers classroom.

Ron may be dead within 15 years, but the message he is sending out will have some residual life. Please notice how many on the vine can recollect John Kennedy, gone 37 years. I remember Truman, Taft and Eisenhower, Joe and pinko reds.

Another advantage our younger people have is the high speed elctronics they use. Wow. Access to everything by their choice of APPs. I am never first with the news here. I do try to verify what they tell me on the internet and sometimes it shows up a half hour or 2 and even 4 days later.

1968? Oh what fun. Remember the Democratic convention in Chicago? If you're too young to remember, just think of the song.

BTW, John F. Kennedy has been gone for nearly 50 years. The anniversary will be in 2013. My beloved Bobby Kennedy was killed in 1968, and that changed history.

Both Kennedy's killings changed how our world could have been...I don't think the depth of this is understood by many.

No he need to keep going, showing how the right wing works. They are just crazy. I good thing there is only 25% of them.

nice....herman is getting back in this with a 666 plan the entire bunch are Devils

The phrase isn't in the Constituition. Obviously the separation isn't absolute or we wouldn't have things like "national prayer day" or being sworn in on a Bible. This isn't a "Christian" country but the overwhelming majority do claim to believe in God.

It does not matter whether you believe in God or not. The point is that if the government is to be fair *to all* people of all faiths and beliefs, they can *not* pass laws base on any *one* religion's beliefs and morals. Santorum is quite clear that he believes in laws base on religion, and that is wrong, especially in a diverse nation as ours.

Saintorum and many of his kind have never and will never believe that there is such a thing as separation of church and state. Since they seem to believe this error so strongly, they have no problem whatsoever in trying to get their faith based ideology legislated into law and forced on the rest of the country.

I heard the harmless and lovable little fuzz ball Rush Limbo on his show saying that separation of church and state is something that is not in the constitution, no doubt Limbo think separation of church and state is the product of secularist liberals who don't like the restrictions that religion places on them and to free themselves from this burden came up with the concept of separation. How overly thrilled Saintorum must be in getting the support from the great leader of the GOP-- Jabba the Rush.

Kennedy took his stand on the side of freedom and against those who for what ever reason would try to impinge the freedoms of others. He placed a road block in the path of those who might try to use their majority status to force others to go along with their faith based ideology and thereby trample on that most important of principles, liberty of conscience.

Kennedy took his stand on the side of freedom and against those who for what ever reason would try to impinge the freedoms of others.

And he did that as a defense aginst the right, who claimed JFK "would take his orders form the Pope." Today, the right seem to be suggesting the polar opposite ... that church philosophy should run the government.

My how times have changed.

The phrase isn't in the Constituition.

I agree "separation of church and state" isn't in there....but neither is "checks and balances".

What's your point??

BUT there is a definite statement that there will be no test for religion for seekers of public office.

My how times have changed

So true!

It seems that the right are getting more and more determined to try and turn this country into some kind of right wing Christian theocracy.

The point is that if the government is to be fair *to all* people of all faiths and beliefs, they can *not* pass laws base on any *one* religion's beliefs and morals.

I doubt that anyone wants THAT, if only because if you'll notice, there are so many divisions within Christianity that who would win? Martin Luther even spoke of the "priesthood of all believers" which presumably implied that no two Christians interpret the Bible the exact same way. You can definitely have opinions that are informed by your faith and talk and vote on that basis, though. But in the case of Santorum, we hear more about his religious views than what, if anything, he would actually do if, God forbid, he became president.

Thomas Jefferson was pretty adamant about that one for a reason, huh?

isn't it funny how people seldom say what they mean. thing is, with rick santorum, he doesn't need this kind of help to sound like a fool.

To be quite technical, he said the speech was made that year, not that he watched it that year. Also people often imagine they "remember" things they were merely told about. I can "remember" the Cuban missle crisis even though I was only five or six at the time. But how could I? The only thing I actually knew about JFK at the time was he was really, really handsome with a pretty wife and they had two kids with a pony. And that we were having some sort of problem with Russia, but so what, we were always having trouble with them. In reality, I was told about it later so many times I think I remember, but it's a false memory.

Good one! Barf!