Rick Santorum: People Should "Pay Their Own Medical Bills"

Yeah, Rick! Other people should pay my medical bills!

That's really the problem: People like Santorum don't have any concept of how little our economy shares with more than half of American workers.

Explain.

This guy is out of touch with reality.

Does Rick pay his own medical bills? Did he have health insurance payed for by American tax payers (many of whom don't have health care insurance for themselves) when he served in the senate?

Who is going to pay for the aspirin that I need to put between my knees so that I won't have another child that I can't afford to feed?

Where can I find a doctor who accepts chickens?

Okay seriously didn't his medically bills get paid by the people when he was elective to office?

So Grayson was right when he said that the GOP health care plan was that when Americans get sick they should die quickly.

How come this poor excuse of a human is surging in the polls?

Another republican plan designed to correct an errant economy. What better way to do it than to bankrupt the majority of rank and file americans. That ought to get us going in the right direction. Enough of this socialism.

The republican pool of "candidates", and I use the word loosely is the most disconnected with the american people in recent history. No respect for minorities, women or the working class.

How come this poor excuse of a human is surging in the polls?

Those that like him are having orgasms.. and like an orgasm.. excitement builds and then the head explodes.. except for the shouting.. it will tend to fade...

Conservative Conspirator

Yeah, Rick! Other people should pay my medical bills!

Insanitorium doesn't pay his, including for his whole family and especially for his mortally diseased daughter. Who pays those bills? Why, we do. You and me. He gets that for being a senator. Yup, that's right, he gets free health care, all expenses paid, no pre-existing conditions. So, when you tell him to pay those bills himself, and not me (or you), then we'll talk. By the way, he can well afford to pay all those bills, including for his daughter, because he's rich. But he doesn't have to pay them. We do. You and me. So tell him. When you do, get back to me.

well one reason people don't turn in their $500 dollar cost for their car, is that you can drive around with a bashed in hood if you don't have insurance. Driving around with a bashed in brain is another matter (duh). So if you bash your head and need a CT scan that may well cost over $1000 for ONE CT scan what are you supposed to do. Not get it and end up like Natasha Richardson?

He has no idea as to what $!000 for one health test means to a working person. NO Clue. And you up there Conservative conspirator. How are you going to decide what is catastrophic until it is too late because you couldn't afford the medical equivalent of an oil change, so then you end up with invasive cancer instead, which obviously i terrible for you, but even for you selfish folks out there, is also WAY MORE EXPENSIVE.

Yeah, Rick! Other people should pay my medical bills!

What is your solution when folks CAN'T pay? Do only the wealthy deserve healthcare? If you're rich you can survive wave after wave of cancer, but the poor can't swing a $20 prescription for antibiotics?

Healthcare is as inalienable a right as police protection, no, more so.

I have a gun and can protect my property, I can't cure my own cancer.

Remember when Newt was showered with glitter? Now I'm picturing folks taking handfuls of aspirin and tossing them on stage at the next few events where Santorum happens to be speaking. That would make a nice photo-op. Aim for the knees though.

How do you know how much a woman may need to pay for birth control, and if she can't afford it and has a baby, how much is that going to cost.

I am cool with that. I don't care if I never have sex again. Maybe women should just refuse to have sex with men it is risky behavior that might result in a baby. That seems like good idea to me. Until women's reproductive health including BC is covered , I say no sex with men who think it shouldn't be covered. No pun meant here.

It isn't just $30 for BC. You have to add in the cost of the doctor's visit , yearly pap and mammograms, and all sorts of other things that go along with BC, and surprise, many women CAN'T afford it.

Not so fast Al! It would only make Americans live up to the republican dogma of the self made rugged individual...I mean if people have to horde their money in the eventuality they get sick or injured when life occurs, it won't harm the consumer driven economy , which requires Americans to actually spend in order for our economy to grow...

OK...Sarc!

Jack, it isn't an issue of $30 contraception. About 15 years ago I broke my leg, had to have surgery, and the total hispotal bill for surgery and one night in the hospital was a little over $37,000. Insurance ended up paying about $33,000 of that, but I still had to come up with four grand almost immediately.

If I had no insurance and was expected to pay out of pocket, what the hell was I supposed to do? And don't quote me "catastrophic coverage." Most insurance companies start that coverage at $500,000+. Do you really think Santorum would accept less than that as a base?

Its why I'm rasing chickens..I aleady squared with my doctor...well with my witch doctor my MD still wants to get paid

Its why I'm rasing chickens..I aleady squared with my doctor...well with my witch doctor my MD still wants to get paid.

Please see post 2.13 and 2.14 we are in business!

Rick is a PoS...

My plan is to buy all the psuedoepinephrine I can now so when I get sick I could start cooking meth, Breaking bad style!

How do you know how much a woman may need to pay for birth control,

1. I'm married, and pay the bills in my house.

2. The information is readily available on the internet.

3. Health insurance analysis is part of my job.

and if she can't afford it and has a baby, how much is that going to cost.

About $15k for a normal delivery.

Maybe women should just refuse to have sex with men it is risky behavior that might result in a baby.

It might also result in HIV. Why are you not whining about the failure of health insurance to cover condoms?

It isn't just $30 for BC. You have to add in the cost of the doctor's visit , yearly pap and mammograms, and all sorts of other things that go along with BC, and surprise, many women CAN'T afford it.

"Some"? Maybe. "Many?" Horsesh*t. Many people would simply rather spend their money somewhere else.

The combined cost for a year's worth of BC, annual exam, and pap smear is about what the average person pays for their cell phone every year.

Now I'm picturing folks taking handfuls of aspirin and tossing them on stage at the next few events where Santorum happens to be speaking.

you just might have something there...hmmm

@#1.3 Hey conservative conspirator, I see where you wrote this on another post:

Entitlements dwarf the military budget.

Care to explain that?

It is difficult to explain the concepts of risk management and insurance to the average individual.

The larger the risk pool the less it costs everyone in the pool.

But then we have those who game the system ... not those (the poor) who can't afford health insurance but those who can!

These leaches self-insure and use that to avoid paying taxes ... or they don't insure and depend on the emergency room.

Then there are those who can't afford insurance but won't admit it - just like many who need food stamps but won't apply.

That's where the bitterness sets in ...... are the disadvantaged the freeloaders or are the real freeloaders those who can't afford insurance but don't want to spend the money?

How about letting people who can afford insurance just die?

The solution is simple .... everyone in the pool.

@#1.22 Jack, your wrote this:

"People will bitch and moan, but of course he's right. Insurance is supposed to kick in and cover the costs that are beyond your means. Not the costs you should be able to afford but didn't plan for."

Is that how it works in your case?; you pay the doctor as much as you can afford to on your way out the door, and let them bill your insurance co. for the balance? Is that your model for the nation?

The combined cost for a year's worth of BC, annual exam, and pap smear is about what the average person pays for their cell phone every year.

I'm sure that women can find someone who will do breast exams and pap smear exams for free at the local Walmart.

As for the babies that women will be forced to give birth to I'm sure that there is back market that will pay good money for the babies and if the babies can't be sold to a "loving family" there is always the sex trades when the child gets out of diapers.

Is that your model for the nation?

Welcome to the new USA every man and women for themselves.

I'm going to go into business, license I don't need no stinking license I need superglue, a sharp knife and some books on surgery.

That is fine talk coming from a scummy piece of reich trash who not only LOBBYs for corporate health insurance but was a legislator as well. Kick that scumbag to the curb. I will if he ever comes to my door! Just give me time to put on my steel-toes!

Between their positions on public assistance and healthcare, the conservative motto seems to now be, "If you didn't plan perfectly for future unforeseen circumstances from the moment you were born and are now finding yourself in trouble financially or medically, TOUGH SH!T, it's your own damn fault."

*Sighs*

JackTX:
How does knowing what your wife pays for birth control have anything to do with knowing what someone else pays, or how much they make?

Do you have health insurance? People without it pay more not less, and it is difficult to even find a doctor who will see you if you don't have it. They don't go for even collateral chickens around where I live, and I live rural.

Here is is not uncommon at all for people to live at the poverty level or below. It is a really depressed area anyway and we are in a depression. I think it should all be covered. Condoms too, but condoms don't really help all women and you can't buy the female kind on the rack.

If you work analyzing health care you know that non-group and uninsured patients pay more to begin with. So what you pay if you are insured wouldn't be the same anyway. If you aren't how do you get a doctor to see your wife if she isn't insured?

I guess you have a cell phone ? Well lots of people around where I live don't have any way to make a phone call much of the month as they can't afford even Walmart Minutes and can't get another phone. So, I guess you are right. They are both equally inaccessible. And yes, since there are no more pay phones you could die for lack of phone service. Bravo. Two more ways for the poor to die.

I have a friend who works as a FNP at a low cost clinic. They are understaffed and underfunded. If someone has a serious problem they can't be seen except at an ER. They don't have the money. Wow #3 way for the poor to die. Going home to tough it out rather than be hit with a tens of thousands of dollars er bill and a couple thousand in CT scan bill for an ovarian cyst that could easily have been avoided if she could have had pre-disaster reproductive health insurance.

The average person? Who is that anyway? Somebody you don't know obviously.

What Mr. Santorum doesn't seem to understand is that people already do pay their own medical bills. We also pay his.

Rick Santorum suffers from an increasingly virulent form of conservative idioglossia—and his rarefied and esoteric language, incomprehensible to all but the most privileged, the most reactionary, and the most delusional people in America, will surely cost him in the long run. Keep talking, Rick, just keep on blabbing away.

As a Pennsylvanian -- a state which rejected Dick Santorum's re-election by a 30% margin-- this is a real hoot. Santorum - who has 7 children -- claimed to live in a two-bedroom townhouse in PA - so that he could get a local -- and quite poor- school district to kick in $40,000 per year paying the costs for his kids to go to cyber school. He's a good one to tell the rest of us about our "free" ride.

My wife just had the oil changed and the car lubricated today it cost $49.00. I also bought a four dose supply (one month) of a drug that controls my arthritis (Enbrel) my co-pay was $795.00. The total cost of the drug for a one month supply is over $2,500.00. When routine medical cost and drug cost are equatable with getting routine service for your car then I will have no problem paying for it. Until then I need to use insurance. I have enough trouble coming up with the $800.00 co-pay but to pay full price is something that would be impossible.

What Mr. Santorum doesn't seem to understand is that people already do pay their own medical bills. We also pay his.

Yes... Congress and the Prez/VP etc.. should all pay for their own premiums.. including the amount that the insurance won't pay if they have something done..Any Federal & State employee who makes over a certain amount should pay their own way.. Maybe that might send a signal and a change in tune if they had to struggle from paycheck to paycheck like the rest of us..

Attention Austin Rick #1.24

@#1.3 Hey conservative conspirator, I see where you wrote this on another post:

Entitlements dwarf the military budget.

Care to explain that?

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/418262_10150598058944266_505164265_8845835_472376590_n.jpg

So if you bash your head and need a CT scan that may well cost over $1000 for ONE CT scan what are you supposed to do. Not get it and end up like Natasha Richardson?

You should carry medical insurance and have a 20% co-pay. Your life is worth the money, isn't it?

Jack is employing the genetic fallacy. It doesn't matter what insurance was for. Just as it doesn't matter how medical expenses were handled 50 years ago.

Insurance, NOW, is handled as a business where the odds of a given person, at a given age, of a given gender (and so on) are used to determine the costs that would allow them to earn a profit based on the odds of the criteria...

So, by making it "only for catastrophic coverage" you change nothing. And you can be assured that each and every single insurance company would use every means at their collective disposal, which is mind-bogglingly considerable, to fight such a change.

Doctors (GPs), for instance, in the 1950s earned under $9,000 per year. Today they can expect nearly 20 times that amount.

The average "decent" wage in 1950 was around $450 per month. Today it's about four times that.

So we went from making half of what doctors made to about a fifth or a sixth.

If you had a bloke like the "aspirin between the knees" guy, then families paid an average of $80 per year for doctors visits and medical expenses OR $550 if hospitalization and operations were needed (not that much was really done then).

Today, we spend, on average, at least 20 times that much just in insurance. After that, we STILL spend (on average) about 3-4 times that 1950s level "out of pocket"...

I also bought a four dose supply (one month) of a drug that controls my arthritis (Enbrel) my co-pay was $795.00. The total cost of the drug for a one month supply is over $2,500.00

I used to bitch about my $76.00 a month charge for Enbrel here in Canada. Did you know that that's a typical example of 'complaints' we Canadians spout about our system?

A child born at 25 weeks gestation needs 40 days in a neo-natal intensive care.

• In Canada, 40 days in neo-natal intensive care and related medical procedures cost the government $508,000 and parents pay $0 in out of pocket costs.
• In the US, 40 days in neo-natal intensive care and related medical procedures cost parents $3,060,000 and they have to declare bankruptcy if they can't pay.

Did you know that after learning about your American insurance-run health care system, from this day forward, I’ll kiss the ground with gratitude once a week and never, ever complain again our system again? My God, compared to your American insurance run health care system, our Canadian system is Heaven on Earth! (and contrary to American insurance company and Republican propaganda, Canadians do NOT go to the United States for treatment IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, but millions of Americans DO stream to CANADA for treatment for serious illnesses every year. In some Canadian hospitals, 1 in 5 people admitted is an American.)

Canadians with serious illnesses get treatment in Canada, and would not touch American insurance-run health care IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

"Because health insurance isn't insurance anymore."

Health Insurance is for profit only and not for paying claims... Gr.

John..

My God, compared to your American insurance run health care system, our Canadian system is Heaven on Earth! (and contrary to American insurance company and Republican propaganda, Canadians do NOT go to the United States for treatment IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, but millions of Americans DO stream to CANADA for treatment for serious illnesses every year. In some Canadian hospitals, 1 in 5 people admitted is an American.)

I use to work with a citizen of Canada (dual citizenship).. and he would plan his vacation time around his Physicals .. and would boast during the year about his health care compared to ours.. and that was back in the late 70's.

Republican propaganda.. most people do not believe nor trust.. if they have a sane head attached to their shoulders...

Conservative Conspirator:

You should carry medical insurance and have a 20% co-pay. Your life is worth the money, isn't it?

$54,000. a year, with no eye care and no dental. That is how much ours costs and we can't change. It is Blue Cross with American Progressive. Non-Group. This is more than most Americans make. It is making us have to make some really sick choices. Take care of us , or our mother in law , and, daughter.

We won't be able to go on paying this for long as our business isn't doing well and we are too old to do much about it. We are both very disabled as is our youngest daughter. Tell me HOW that is "affordable". IT isn't.

For all you who have been lucky enough to be able to pay for your own stuff. Thank your lucky stars because you could have anything happen to you that could change all that in a flash of a second and you would then be cast into a pit of health care insuranceless Hell you can not even imagine.

You should carry medical insurance and have a 20% co-pay. Your life is worth the money, isn't it?

But that's what this thread is about. We're not supposed to have medical insurance. We're just supposed to save up the $15,000 to $30,000 a serious medical issue would cost us, then pay in cash.

Rick Santorum: People should pay their own medical bills

If he really felt that way, then why doesn't he pay for is daughter's medical care that's all paid for by the taxpayers. Saintorum lives off the people's tax-dollars, and he gets free medical that's paid for by the taxpayers as well.

What a douche this man is, and the only people I know that supports this pathetic man's sorry azz are the religious sheeple in my town.

As a Canadian, you really have a screwed up system. Now we have Harper (some are now calling him Colonel Harper.) He is trying to bring in the US system of government. He will rule for some time, but we will vote him out next time. Hope you do the same for the Republicans.

Lazarus: "Dude. L'il help?"

Jesus: "How much ya' got?"

Lazarus: "Dude, seriously?"

Jesus: "Whatever, dead man. Call me when you're not poor."

But that's what this thread is about. We're not supposed to have medical insurance. We're just supposed to save up the $15,000 to $30,000 a serious medical issue would cost us, then pay in cash.

15,000-30,000 if your lucky

Insurance is supposed to kick in and cover the costs that are beyond your means. Not the costs you should be able to afford but didn't plan for.

Um, no. Insurance is supposed to kick and pay what they promise to pay when you sign up. If you are paying for doctor visits, you'd damned well better get it. Same with prescription plans. If you are paying them premiums to get your penicillin paid for, they had better pay up or reimburse everybody their money.

Many Americans cannot afford to routine preventive care, because businesses pay too little and health care providers and pharmaceutical companies charge so much. I was chatting with a friend last month about this, and he relayed that his doctor switched him to a new medication, and the cost is $500 per month. Who makes enough money to spend $6000 per year on one medication, along with all the rest of the things that one needs to spend money on, not to mention trying to save enough for retirement that you don't end up dying on the street after Social Security dies out?

Any of you who posted above, Walk into a hospital and tell them you are uninsured and paying cash and look at the difference in the bill. My wife works for a hospital and she's seen Amish patients treated. The things the hospital does differently are astounding. When insurance is paying there is no cost spared. The care is really no better it's just the hospital wastes less than if you are insured.

Santorum isn't wrong.

How about letting people who can afford insurance just die?

Don't you worry. When we have income inequality like we do here in the USA. We have more mental illness. This effects doctors

I am pretty sure doctors let rich folk die to be spiteful.

Of course he's wrong. If the service providers are abusively exploiting their practical oligopolistic position, the answer isn't to take out your frustrations on the poor folks trying to keep themselves healthy. The answer is to fix the system, by eliminating the ability for service providers to provide different levels of care based on payer, for example. In our prosperous society, affluence should affect how comfortable your hospital room is, how quickly your non-critical care needs are met, and even how experienced your physician is, but should not govern whether or not you get the basic health care necessary to keep you healthy.

A Republican victory would spell the end to Employer based HC. Used to be the common sense thinking a healty workforce is a productive workforce. Now you are disposable, they have slowly killed the Unions since the Reagan years now they are working on killing Employer paid Health care....it was and is a grand plan that has really kicked in..low wages, no benefits, right to work.

There isn't really any other reason I can possibly fathom why (he) wouldn't authorize a pipeline (to carry) this incredibly valuable sweet crude to the refineries that are in desperate need of it."

Has anyone explained to him that this is not "sweet crude" it is filty dirty tar sands that will leave us to dispose of the bi product after the oil is squeezed out. Even after that this is at best 2nd or 3rd grade quality that will take extra processing to be of any use.

The problem we have with insurance companies is partly to blame on those who are Uninsured.. those who walk in to a hospital E.R. and do not make the money to pay for the care, the state and the Insured people pay.

Take a good look at what it cost an individual for 2 aspirin in a hospital. The hospitals and doctors are paid a percentage of what they should be paid, so the hospitals and doctors pass it on through the insured..and some of that is for the uninsured. The doctors and hospitals charge higher because they are only paid through the insurance companies a percentage .. so they hike the cost to everyone to make up the difference.. knowing that they will only be paid that percentage.. IF they didn't they would be out of business..especially when equipment to treat people is in the millions of dollars, never mind all the other things that have to be paid for to keep a hospital going.

People who go into an E.R. who do not make very much can apply to the state on forms given out by the hospital .. ( I'm guessing here-just using for an example) - a family of 4 making say $30,000 (Massachusetts), can apply to the state, and the state pays .. again a percentage, and the rest is passed on to those who have insurance and those who can afford to pay it... Most if not all charge more for things to be done because insurance companies only pay a certain percentage...

We are not only paying for our own procedures.. each person is paying for those who could not afford to pay.

Now you are disposable

This is the crux of the issue. Workers are now disposable, replaceable by people who are willing to do the same work for 1/4 the standard-of-living. America has a choice: Either accept 1/4 the standard-of-living we enjoy today, or abandon the idea that free enterprise means allowing business to inflict that trade off on society.

A Republican victory would spell the end to Employer based HC. Used to be the common sense thinking a healty workforce is a productive workforce. Now you are disposable, they have slowly killed the Unions since the Reagan years now they are working on killing Employer paid Health care....it was and is a grand plan that has really kicked in..low wages, no benefits, right to work.

Well said. They will get doctors who will find ways to keep Rich folk coming back. ha ha..

buckeyenut, you are correct. That's the main reason we don't have health insurance. Our family is healthy and it would cost about $10,000 per year for insurance, plus at least $1500.00 per person deductible. All of us go to the doctor for way less than $14,500.00 it would cost us. When my son was smaller and I took him for his well check visit, my cost was about $125.00, versus over $200.00 if I would have had insurance. If you have no insurance and pay at the time of visit in the doctor's office, your bill is smaller because the doctor is not paying someone to file insurance and then having to wait on his money, your case is closed and he can move on. I wish all physicians would quit accepting insurance and only hospitalization insurance offered, like when I was a child. Parents could call the doctor and the doctor would call in a prescription without you going to see him. Also, patients treated themselves at home for minor illnesses like a cold or the flu. I've seen statistics (can't remember where) that show people with insurance go to the doctor more, even when it is something that can be treated from home.

Also, patients treated themselves at home for minor illnesses like a cold or the flu

Why don't you ask Jim Henson (Muppet Man) how well that worked out for him..oh wait you can't because he died from what he thought was the flu...if I could call in my own Z-Pak I would self medicate...see the commericals you wouldn't want your Doctor doing your job then why do to try to his or hers....

I guess you missed the part where I said you call the doctor and he calls you in a prescription, or he would advise you what to by over the counter. I've not done the doctor's job, I just didn't have to pay for a office visit to get the information. If you follow the doctor's advise, and do not feel better in a couple of days, the go into the office. If you do feel better, you've saved a ton of money and time. If doctor's didn't have to worry so much about getting sued, maybe we could get back to doing things that way and healthcare costs would plummet. Give that alternative back to the patient and doctor.

Give that alternative back to the patient and doctor.

Agreed. There are many times that my doctor has called in perscriptions for me without having to see me.

Appealing to base.

These are people who yell, "KEEP YOUR GOVERNMENT HANDS OFF MY MEDICARE!!!"

I guess you missed the part where I said you call the doctor and he calls you in a prescription, or he would advise you what to by over the counter.

A lot of doctors are not willing to do that for reasons of liability.

another headache

How does knowing what your wife pays for birth control have anything to do with knowing what someone else pays, or how much they make?

Please read. I consult in this business for a living, including PBM analysis. If you actually doubt me, go to drugstore.com and do your own survey.

Here is is not uncommon at all for people to live at the poverty level or below. It is a really depressed area anyway and we are in a depression.

And we have programs that cover them.

If you work analyzing health care you know that non-group and uninsured patients pay more to begin with.

That's actually not true any more. It used to be, but now group plans tend to be more expensive.

The rest of your melodramatic rant does not even refer to people with insurance, so I'll leave that.

Austinrick

Is that how it works in your case?; you pay the doctor as much as you can afford to on your way out the door, and let them bill your insurance co. for the balance? Is that your model for the nation?

I have insurance that pays only after I've hit my deductible. So I pay for doctor visits, prescriptions and any other care until I've spent that much, at which point my plan kicks in. We do it this way for 2 reasons.

First, the premium we save every year as compared to a traditional plan with office co-pays and a drug card more than pays for the deductible.

Second, since I analyze benefit plans as part of my job, I realize that co-pays are a massive ripoff. In most cases, you're still paying for at least half the cost of the drug or service, with none of that money going toward your deductible or stop loss. The additional premium you pay is almost always more than the insurance company pays out on your behalf (they're smart that way).

A Radical Idea

I also bought a four dose supply (one month) of a drug that controls my arthritis (Enbrel) my co-pay was $795.00. The total cost of the drug for a one month supply is over $2,500.00. When routine medical cost and drug cost are equatable with getting routine service for your car then I will have no problem paying for it.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, and here is some free professional advice. Enbrel is obviously an extremely expensive med, but if you're like many of the people we work with, it's a Godsend.

Let's look at the math if you were on a plan like an HSA with a $3500 aggregate family deductible with a $6000/yr total stop loss. Your Enbrel would cost you $2500 in January, $1300 in February, $500 in March, April, May and June, and $200 in July. So a total of $6k as opposed to the $9540 you pay now. Moreover, the rest of your care for everyone in your family would then be covered at 100% for the rest of the year...AND the $6k you spend is now tax deductible.

Jack TX #1.12:

When people consider the idea that a woman working for a Catholic hospital might actually have to cough up $30/mo for her own birth control...and come to the conclusion that such a measure constitutes a "war on women"...they obviously do not understand the concept of insurance.

$30/month? Where?!

It's not just birth control/contraceptives. Medications used for contraception are also used to treat serious medical conditions (such as Polycystic ovary syndrome) - excluding these medications across the board (or requiring women and their physicians to prove the non-contraceptive use of them) is absolutely an attack on women's health.

I'm not a huge fan of slippery slope arguments, but if Catholic organizations can exclude coverage for medications and/or procedures that are against the beliefs of the organization, can others? For example, some religions believe that medications for treatment of mental illness are inappropriate, unneeded, dangerous; can employees of those employers be denied coverage for their legitimate medical issues? I object to payment for ED medications - if I provide insurance for my employees, can I insist that the insurance not cover ED drugs?

What about employees who are employed by a Jehovah's Witness company or organization? Can that company refuse to insure for blood transfusions through the health care coverage they provide their employees, many of who do not follow the beliefs of this religion? And there's a plethora of reasons why a person may need a transfusion.

I suspect the Republicans' actual intention here is solely to allow mainline Protestant and Catholic employers to inflict their religious beliefs and values on their employees, and to deprive smaller Protestant denominations and non-Christians of that ability.

Santorum is skilled at finding ways to convey his idiocy to me. Rick, I get it; please stop.

When insurance is paying there is no cost spared.

This is just silly. When my wife had hernia surgery, the recommended stay post-op was 5 days, the insurance company covered ONE night, so the hospital sent her home next-day.

Furthermore insurance companies pay FAR less than actual people do. Bill before insurance? $45,000, but insurance company paid $18k, the rest was 'discounted.'

Why should a massive conglomerate get a discount of 60%, and the average shmoe get stuck with the full bill?

No, you're SUPPOSED to have Medical Insurance, but not medical insurance that covers small amounts. Savings cover that.

Fred is correct.

The same $200 procedure is provided to a patient with insurance and a patient without. For the insured patient, insurance pays $60, patient's co-pay is $20, and $120 is "discounted" - required to be written off - patient cannot be billed. For the uninsured patient, the entire $200 is due and payable. It is the uninsured who pay more than the insured. For these 2 procedures, $280 is collected - the net revenue is $140 per procedure - the uninsured paid $60 toward the insured's procedure.

In 2009 I had my gall bladder out. The surgery was late Friday night and I was discharged on Sunday. I have very good insurance. I received the itemized bill that is now required to be sent. The total cost was $6495.96. My co-pay was $250. My insurance paid $1200. That brought the account to paid in full. So if I paid out of pocket my bill would have been $6495.96, while my insurance company's bill was $1200. Hmmm... So I should follow Rick who thinks that me paying $6495.96 is better than me paying $250 & my insurance company paying $1200.

Thanks, nica - a real-life example of my point. I've seen the same thing with my mother's insurance statements.

Another Headache:

You pay $54,000 a year for insurance? That's crazy! Why so much?

I know!

Let's go out and get elected to the Senate so we can get rich, collect top-tier health insurance and not have to worry about it---just like Santorum.

A few years ago, I had a hernia repair (weight lifters get these things sometimes) and was able to look up the bill in the hospital's computer files----I hasten to add that I worked there, and had free access to some records.

Anyway, the fee-for-use for the surgical theater (OR) was about $6,000. Yeah, that was six grand just to use an operating room. Altogether this thing cost about $15,000. Since the job paid about $9/hour, if I'd had to pay much more than the co-pay out-of-pocket, I would have been trafficking in drugs, guns and mob hits to make up the difference.

Santorum=Moron.

So this knob thinks Americans should pay their own medical bills huh?Interesting comment from someone who has always had his and his families medical bills paid for by the taxpayer huh?

How DARE he suggest that I be responsible for myself!

It is societies responsibility to take care of me!

Can you imagine if our founding fathers felt that way? King George could have bought them off with free tea! We were once a nation of fiercely independent people who took pride in doing for themselves. Now, thanks to the "Great Society" programs of the 60's and their expansion, we are a people always looking for a handout.

Handouts that buy votes. If anyone were to suggest that it might be a good idea if people were more self-responsible, there will always be some liberal shouting about how they want to throw the poor into the street to starve. After all, to the liberal mind, people are incapable of taking care of themselves.

fiercely independent people who took pride in doing for themselves.

Thats why we had slaves at the beginning right???? All those hard working slave owners....like Washington and Jefferson.

Very few people owned slaves. They were very expensive.

You must be a product of public education, for your statement shows a degree of ignorance that belies that fact.

Very few people owned slaves.

Just most of the founding fathers.

No, you're SUPPOSED to have Medical Insurance, but not medical insurance that covers small amounts. Savings cover that.

No, medical insurance is SUPPOSED to cover whatever is outlined in the policy you signed up for, which is defined by what is available for consumers to purchase in the FREE MARKET. Attempts to dictate what type of service a private company chooses to offer based on ideology is simply right-wing social engineering.

It's actually in the insurance company's best interest to pay for routine tests and preventative care rather than leave it up to the individual, since regular health screening makes it more likely that disease will be found and treated at an early stage, which usually reduces costs in the long run.

Right wing interference? It is liberal ideology that is placing mandates on what insurance companies HAVE to cover.

@angry left

The founding fathers created our government, but they were long gone, as was slavery by the time this country was being built.

liberal ideology that is placing mandates on what insurance companies HAVE to cover.

It's not liberal ideology that's suggesting that blood work and X-rays shouldn't be covered by insurance companies, it's Rick Santorum.

It is liberal idiology that says that birth control, sex change operations and viagra must be covered.

Allowing me to purchase a policy that does NOT cover these things is prevented by liberal idiology that stresses that everyone should have the same coverage.

Liberal idiology does not allow for simple equal opportunity, no, equal results are also required.

Required, but seldom possible.

"the founding fathers and slavery were gone by the time the country was built!?!?!?"" very few people owned slaves?!?!?" and you have the nerve to tell others their education is poor!?!?!? wow!!!

No, you're SUPPOSED to have Medical Insurance, but not medical insurance that covers small amounts. Savings cover that.

Yes, however, mostly due to how much it costs to pay people's salaries in our society, there are practically no medical procedures that cost "small amounts".

The same $200 procedure is provided to a patient with insurance and a patient without. For the insured patient, insurance pays $60, patient's co-pay is $20, and $120 is "discounted" - required to be written off - patient cannot be billed. It is the uninsured who pay more than the insured.

Correct. Group insurance subscribers get a group discount, similar to how AAA members get a discount on hotel rooms.

How DARE he suggest that I be responsible for myself!

Fighting for, achieving and then supporting government's efforts to protect fair treatment in terms of wages and benefits from employers is employees being responsible for themselves.

This is all to much, these republicans need to go and go quickly. Their banter makes me want to go the way of socialism.

On the other hand, why would an insurance company want to back these people, in the everyman for himself category, we wouldn't need insurance at all since no one would be able to afford all of this higher than necessary expensive as hell medical care.

WaltUU,

I have had several medical procedures done where the my co-pay was a small amount--a couple of hundred dollars.

How would you define "small amount?"

You lost your train of thought. The assertion of yours that I was replying to was:

"No, you're SUPPOSED to have Medical Insurance, but not medical insurance that covers small amounts. Savings cover that."

"Co-pay" implies health insurance pays the rest.

Allowing me to purchase a policy that does NOT cover these things is prevented by liberal idiology that stresses that everyone should have the same coverage.

That's not the issue - the issue is that an EMPLOYER which provides/offers coverage for employees is required to offer coverage for these things, not permitted to pick and choose to exclude types of care. You, as an individual, can purchase any policy you can afford and qualify for. (Of course if you're like most Americans, the premium will be out of reach or pre-existing conditions will will exclude you.)

Walt,

The Medical Insurance did not cover the small amount of $200.

Are you saying people should not supply their own medical insurance?

And no one in this thread has a problem with that. You're apparently arguing an issue that no one has objected to.

Santorum, on the other hand, is arguing that health insurance should only include catastrophic, "unanticipated" costs.

I hope this helps you catch up to the conversation.

And we need clarification on what Santorum means by that.

In the meantime, let's take Santorum out of the equation, and figure out what is a reasonable Medical Insurance cost and risk for the American family to take on...

And we need clarification on what Santorum means by that.

Why did he even bring it up if he was okay with the current co-pay arrangement that you seem to be advocating for? Are you suggesting that he's just spewing vacuous politicized nonsense, trying to make something sound like an issue to cynically attempt to draw votes his way?

In the meantime, let's take Santorum out of the equation

Considering that Santorum is the topic of this thread, request denied. If you want to discuss this issue in the absence of Santorum and what he said, then start another seed.

Walt,

You are a typical Liberal. You just want to attack instead of solving problems.

False. (Gosh, Conspirator, you made that way too easy for me to debunk.)

Try another personal attack, one that perhaps has more style and pizzazz. Maybe one that we can use to get you suspended.

So lets do it the republican way...lets drop the minimum wage so people will work for 3 bucks an hour, make insurance too expensive for them to afford, take away all social programs and expect them to pay cash or barter (what does someone making 6k a year have to barter?) for health care.....then we can watch people start dropping like flies.

Ahhhh....rightwingrepublicantealand...such a beautiful place.....

If you are making $6K a year, you are not working enough....

OK.....read very carefully and slowly....

Republicans want to get rid of minimum wage....

That means some people will have to work for whatever....

Lets look at 3 bucks an hour.....thats 120 a week or 480 a month....thats 5760 a year. (this is not even 6 months of rent for me).

I know you will say for this person to go get some of that elitist education....

How can a person go to school when the aid programs that would help this person, like the pell grant, are also under attack by republicans?

In rightwingrepublicanland, the only people who can get ahead are people who already have a head start because of mommy and daddy.

How does a guy who just graduated highschool, who now has to go work at mcdonalds for a couple bucks an hour because he has no skills or experience and no way to gain those skills better himself??

Work harder for mcd's???? great that will get him all the way up to 5 bucks an hour....I mean you can do so much more with 10k a year right??

Medical care should be affordable, within reach of all Americans, this includes not having to choose between eating and birth control.

Which Republicans are you talking about? I'm a Republican and I don't want to get rid of the minimum wage.

World,

How do you define "affordable." That subjective word is just as vague as Santorum's subjective word "unexpected."

Here CC, some light reading about your peers.

Ohio Senate Republicans Attempt To Gut State Minimum Wage Law
or

Ron Paul: Abolish minimum wage to ‘help poor people’

and

Bill to lower state minimum wage dies in committee

Five Republican-sponsored minimum wage bills failed to come up for a House committee vote Tuesday ahead of a key deadline.

and

Michele Bachmann Would Consider Lowering the Minimum Wage

and

More Candidates Come Out Against Minimum Wage

When you are done with those, let me know, I can link hundreds more. Or you could just google something like GOP minimum wage.

You should keep up on what your leaders are saying and doing....2 of those articles reference GOP presidential candidates.

Which Republicans are you talking about?

Ron Paul

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/09/ron-paul-abolish-minimum-wage-to-help-poor-people/

Incidentally, $6,000 per year is what someone makes if their minimum wage job only gives them 16 hours per week - that's not atypical, because I believe that that's how many hours they can get away with having you work without giving you benefits of full-time work, in some places.

How do you define "affordable."

Able to afford, i.e., a typical worker who works as many hours as employers are willing to offer can make enough salary to pay for basic food, basic reasonably-safe shelter, basic clothing, transportation to and from work, and enough health care to address all their health problems, and receive all preventive care that studies show reduce overall costs of health care long-term.

These people do not speak for all Republicans. The speak for themselves.

Incidentally, $6,000 per year is what someone makes if their minimum wage job only gives them 16 hours per week - that's not atypical, because I believe that that's how many hours they can get away with having you work without giving you benefits of full-time work, in some places.

FAIL. Typically benefits start at 32 hours.

Like it or not, these four, collectively, speak for all Republicans. If you don't like any of the four of them, then you should be honorable and resign the GOP.

Like I did in 1982.

They are your leaders CC......I can't judge every single republican and thier stances...I have to look towards their elected representatives to see what they are thinking.....YOU are responsible for what the people YOU vote for say and do. I don't care what you believe, I care what your elected representatives say.

...and go ahead and try to convince me that if Bachmann or Paul got the nomination you wouldn't vote for them.....and support their ideas by doing so??!!

Incidentally, $6,000 per year is what someone makes if their minimum wage job only gives them 16 hours per week - that's not atypical, because I believe that that's how many hours they can get away with having you work without giving you benefits of full-time work, in some places.

FAIL. Typically benefits start at 32 hours.

Wrong. Like I said in "some places" 16 hours is the most amount of hours employers can employ someone before treating them as full-time employees with benefits. In other places the number is higher, but in some places it is indeed 16.

You'd do better to stop viscerally reacting to messages and start thinking about your replies before you post them.

They are not my leaders. I can not be led.

But you vote for them to lead you. Your vote implies agreement.

Incidentally, one of those places I was referring to is the federal government. Partial contribution to fringe benefits are warranted for employees working between 16 and 32 hours per week. Below 16 hours, you get nothing other than your wages.

They are not my leaders. I can not be led.

Then you're effectively not a Republican; you're just in it for yourself. Nothing wrong with that really.

Just in it for myself?

Sure, a political party of 1. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with that. If none of the political parties represent your views (and since you disclaim the Republican candidates, that surely accurate describes your situation) then honor dictates going it alone, being an independent.

How do you define "affordable."

A living wage - which varies geographically - is a good measure of "affordable."

The living wage shown is the hourly rate that an individual must earn to support their family, if they are the sole provider and are working full-time (2080 hours per year).

For example, where I live (Greensboro, NC) a living wage for one adult and one child is $17.52/hour. Any guess what the median hourly wage here is?

No clue.

What is reasonable are no drugs should cost over $25 flat rate since they are manufactured for pennies by minimum wage workers in Puerto Rico.

No colonoscopy or endoscopy should be over $500 flat rate. Cancer treatments at $50 a pop for chemotherapy. Standard Dr. apt. flat rate at $50 a visit given most don't spend ten minutes with their patients anyway. These are a good place to start.

Abstract
The research and development costs of 68 randomly selected new drugs were obtained from a survey of 10 pharmaceutical firms. These data were used to estimate the average pre-tax cost of new drug development. The costs of compounds abandoned during testing were linked to the costs of compounds that obtained marketing approval. The estimated average out-of-pocket cost per new drug is US$ 403 million (2000 dollars).

What is reasonable are no drugs should cost over $25 flat rate since they are manufactured for pennies by minimum wage workers in Puerto Rico.

The problem with that kind of cudgel approach is that the imposition of that flat rate will hurt the minimum wage workers in Puerto Rico more than anyone else.

Not really. If the US imposed a flat-rate drug cost, then pharmaceutical companies would raise the rates paid by the rest of the world. Right now they gouge the US, which is why it's become so popular for people to travel to Canada and Mexico for their prescriptions. The pay to those in PR would most likely not be affected.

If the US imposed a flat-rate drug cost, then pharmaceutical companies would raise the rates paid by the rest of the world.

That makes no sense. If the pharmaceutical companies could make more money by charging the rest of the world higher rates, then they would already be doing so.

The pay to those in PR would most likely not be affected.

That would be true if not for two things:

(1) If there were loads of other great jobs in PR. There aren't. The latest BLS data shows PR unemployment at 14.7% in Dec 2011.

(2) Every dollar invested competes with every other way of investing that dollar, so pharmaceutical companies have no choice but to maintain ROI through whatever means necessary.

If the US imposed a flat-rate drug cost, then pharmaceutical companies would raise the rates paid by the rest of the world.

Actually they'd stop selling their products here. They already have quit production (some voluntary, some due to quality/supply issues) of many drugs considered vital to millions of people. See here. It's stunning.

Fantastic debate. Great sources. Thanks.

Sort of a pity, really. The guy is so obviously unelectable Obama wouldn't even need to campaign against him.

That's why I so hope the Repulsivecans nominate him, because he is so unelectable. He only cares about rich people who go to a Latin mass. Well, he's got Mel Gibson's vote. Unless Newt steals Gibson's vote because of the shared womanizing thing.

We need to vote for Obama's 2nd term and "make it so" as they said on Star Trek.

Makes you wonder if there is an echo in their heads when they speak. The empathy and reality portions of their brains are missing so there has to be room for an echo chamber. Handy for singing hymns in 4-part harmony when sitting alone in the bathroom.

The republicants are PRAYING for a brokered convention -- still looking for the "white knight" who will save them from themselves. Problem is that leaders develop from a field of people with leadership traits such as integrity, compassion, and knowledge -- all in pitifully short supply in the TGOP. There is no white knight -- Santorum won't carry his home state of Pennsylvania if he gets the nomination!

OOOOOO, I do, kj. I line my drawers with hundreds.... LOL

A week in the hospital because you put off a colonoscopy because of cost, could well cost in the tens of thousands, More than lots of people make in a year.

It is unbelievable about to think that he could potentially be the Repub nominee.

It is unbelievable about to think that he [Santorum] could potentially be the Repub nominee.

Even the GOP isn't that cosmically stupid. Michelle Bachmann, Rick Perry, and Herman Cain are gone. Next to go will be Santorum, then Ron Paul, then Newt Gingrich.

Mitt Romney comes across as the only presentable nominee; of course, his chances of winning in November are hovering slightly north of zero right now.

in 2008 I might have agreed with you
but now..

sadly, yes, the GOP would nominate Santorum. and then would rant with claims of voter fraud when his loss set election records

Yes, and can you imagine the cost to deliver seven kids. I'm sure that he paid for that on his own. And, what about the daughter that was just in the hospital. Did he pay for all of her medical bills out of pocket? What a hypocrite. He is SO out of touch with what is going on with the middle class and the poor.

I said it before and I'll say it again. The Republicans are going off the deep end.

and he keeps cranking out kids. Thanks for giving us more to pay for while we should pay for our own.

He socked it to the taxpayers in lowly Penn Hills Pennsylvania -- having them pay for the tuition for cyberschool for his kids -- while he lived in Virginia. What a ratfink.

Feliz-When I saw that I was furious-he's a liar and a cheat. He tried to cheat Pennsylvania out of money so he could home school his kids in Virginia.

Then he has the balls to say people should pay for their own medical bills. Sure Rick-as soon as you pony up the cost for educating your brood IN ANOTHER STATE.

I'm sure he's paying for them now--because he got caught. If he did not get caught, PA would still be picking up the bill.

Right, Ted -- he got caught. That's the only thing that stopped him from sucking from PA taxpayer's -- worst -- Penn Hills is a poor school district with a large percentage of students of color. And he has the audacity to preach to the rest of us about shelling out from our pockets. To my knowledge, he never repaid the school district. This is a huge reason he was bounced out of PA -- by the way, the MSM still refers to him as from Pennsylvania -- but to my knowledge he continue to reside in the Washington, DC area. His last job was at a tight wing "think" stank there. He did not have a valid residence in PA while he was "our" senator!

Santorium health insurance = societies death panel = you can't afford to pay your health care bills you deserve to die.

Santorium birth control = asprin between your knees = deny husbands demands = children who can't be taken care of.

Tell me again why someone would vote republican?

lol...not at you, but these tea party azzholes are truly ignorant!

This clown has how many children? "that is what insurance is for -- unanticipated costly expenses. It isn't to pay all of your bills."

Unless you expect us to believe that all your children were "unanticipated" you should be repaying the taxpayers thousands in medical bills.
You were a Senator for how many years? How many medical bills did the taxpayers pay for you that weren't "unanticipated"?

@ blue wolf, I am so sorry to hear about your trouble. I have had those same dental issues, and it hurts. I was fortunate to have insurance.

I don't know if the Vine takes up donations for others, but I wish I could help.

Let's help each other, by slaying these GOP trolls in Congress.

blue wolf

I recently went to my dentist for a prescription for antibiotics due to an abscessed tooth. They wouldn't see me without 90 dollars which I didn't have, and at that I was to come back when they had an opening. The receptionist told me I could go to the emergency room if I had to have the antibiotics immediately (which I did, I was in considerable pain and abscesses kill people)

I went to the emergency room and sat in a chair for 40 minutes, then was ushered into a room, where I sat for another 20 minutes. A doctor walked in and looked at me. He said "we'll take care of that". Walked out, didn't look at the tooth, take an x-ray. He was literally in the room less than 1 minute.

20 minutes later, a nurse walked in with a prescription.

I just got a bill for 490 dollars. For a prescription.

Refuse to pay it. Write out a check for whatever you can afford and hand it to them and say that's all they're getting because that's all the "service" they gave you. I did that once when I was in a similar situation and they threatened to go to a collection agency. I told them to go right ahead - you can't get blood from a rock. I told them I was not going to pay almost a thousand dollars for spending ten minutes with a doctor who said: "I don't know what's wrong with you." I gave them twenty-five bucks. When they reiterated the collection-agency threat (and this was from a hospital run by Catholic nuns, those goodly sisters), I laughed and said take the twenty-five smackers because I've got nothing more for them to take. They took it, and the doctor, administrators and goodly sisters ate the rest.

Go to hell Santorum.

Hell doesn't want him. Things are bad enough down there. And to be really mean because of Insanitorium's lack of compassion, care or concern for anyone else, his sickly daughter can bite it, too. Let him pay the bills for his kid, instead of me.

I wish they did not do such a good job in the first half of this century in keeping us innoculated from infectious diseases, and improvement in treating disease and keeping us enjoying a quality of life even with disease such as diabetes. Now we can not afford all those things researched and invented with our own tax dollars. Only the rich can use the system our tax base built.

If you need 50,000 for a surgery and you have nothing in the bank, you die.

But that's the point. If you don't have the money you're unworthy, and deserve to die.

We'd be like China!!

No really. My wife was born there and lived there all her life, and she had health insurance coverage. Two years ago she had an emergency hysterectomy and was kept in the hospital for 10 days. Here the insurance companies make you go home the next day.

!! I used a bad example!!

No worries. I only knew about the Chinese example because of my wife. It's not like it's common knowledge here in the USA.

The truth is - I used China as an example because I worked with a lady here that says that's what it's like there. But I believe your story.

Keep in mind that my wife had a job and lived in a fair-sized (4,000,000+) city. I went to the hospital with her one day when she got a hepatitis vaccination, and was impressed with the hospital itself. Looked like any hospital in a major US metro area.

no heart
just a pump

he actually doesnt have a pulse now

Cheney had a heart? I did not know that.

Sure he does-the American taxpayers that "should pay for their own medical blls" are paying for his.

Unless I see the medical evidence with my own eyes, no one will convince me that Dick Cheney has, or ever has had, a heart.

sicko.

nano.

That needs to be repeated out loud, in public and media, over, and over, and over, and over......

The same people who decide who is wealthy and should have their taxes raised. Obama must know who that is since he keeps yelling about the wealthy paying their fair share. However, his definition and mine are 2 different things.

Sammy he is talking about doing away with health insurance altogether, and having every individual pay there own medical costs and presumably your family if you die. Do you pay for your medical expenses out of pocket?
well, unless you are very wealthy, your bills will be part of my bills if you can't afford to pay. Could you handle a half million dollar bill? Thats how much 2 weeks of critical care cost one of my family members

TopCat, It is ludicrous to think that people can pay the exorbitant fees that being in a hospital costs these days. That is why most bankruptcies today are a result of medical bills. What does this bunch want, everyone to die off? Hells bells he was against Terrie Shiavo being allowed to pass away and no longer have a feeding tube when they had all that bruhaha down in Florida, and now he says we should all pay for our own medical bills. Yes Ricky I'd love that, if I had the money to do so, but I do not. You see I don't have insurance for the rest of my life as you do, because you were in the Senate and did a lousy job. These people have went over the top and someone needs to reign them in and we are counting on Republican who are common sensical and have compassion (if there are any) to make sure this nutcase does not get the nomination. He is a flaming fruitcake!

I pay my own insurance payments and will be paying around $10,000 picking up the rest of what insurance didn't pay for all the medical procedures that I had done at the end of last year. No I'm not rich and I will only be able to make payments but eventually they will get paid. As I said I pay for my medical so should everyone else including Rick Santorum.

Sammy-2678587

I pay my own insurance payments and will be paying around $10,000 picking up the rest of what insurance didn't pay for all the medical procedures that I had done at the end of last year. No I'm not rich and I will only be able to make payments but eventually they will get paid. As I said I pay for my medical so should everyone else including Rick Santorum.

First of all, you're not paying for your own medical care. You're turning over ten smackers of your own money to a company that will pick up the rest of the tab. That's not paying for your own medical care. Someone else is.

Second, you're right. Insanitorium should pay for his and his own family's health care, including for his sickly kid. I shouldn't have to pay for that. But I am, and so are you with our taxes. You and I don't get that and, like you, I'm not rich, but he is. So why should he get all the goodies, including for a doomed kid he and his wife chose to have? Have you asked him?

if you needed a transplant, you would have a hell of a lot more than $10,000 and many people I know only make about $15,000 a year.

First of all, you're not paying for your own medical care.

Well I'm dieing to know who is paying if not for me.

if you needed a transplant, you would have a hell of a lot more than $10,000 and many people I know only make about $15,000 a year.

Yes I would and I would have to find a way to pay for it. So again I say everyone can pay for their own healthcare, unless we go to a real universal healthcare where everyones healthcare is taken care and everyone pays into the system for it. None of this some get it free while others pay out the butt for it.

I don't make much more than that.

No - just the rich. Even the fittest will need care at some point - the world is full of toxins which cause illness and even the fittest suffer accidents.

Just survival of the rich in the long term.

yeah triple sec, that is why we want universal single payer, or some reasonable facsimile.

say what , 3 sek? Insurance is a scam? No in practice it makes total sense, lots of healthy people and few sick people pying into a pool that covers medical costs for those who need it...What makes it untenable is the ability of conglomerates to buy politicians and craft legislation which enriches them more for providing less services.

The only single payer I need of want is me paying the doctor. Everyone else needs to stay out of my medical business. That's the best single payer system that can be offered.

Good for you. I assume you have an annual income of $500,000 or more. Or plan to just die if you get something expensive, like cancer.

What part of risk pool don't you understand?

Insurance companies live by the "what-if" questions.. No it doesn't make sense at all for me to have to pay for the medical care of someone who does not want to work and is living off the system..I have no problem with assisting the elderly with their care. They built this nation and it's great to give them a hand! But the deadhead trash..let them work out a deal with the doctor...

Triple, you all ready are paying for those who can't afford healthcare, because they appear at the ER when their health declines to the point that they can no longer manage their illness themselves. When they can't pay, the hospital does not just eat the cost; they pass it on in the form of increased rates for everyone else. It would make much more sense to provide early care at a much lower cost and not to wait until it takes an ER to fix things.

Nothing wrong with prevention at all! It's just the freeloaders that disgust me..the ones that know they don't have to work,pay taxes or anything because there's a "free" government program for almost everything. Actually with what I pay with insurance money I could easily afford a summer home for my family. However, the money goes in taxes to pay for some dead head's family. So actually i'm supporting two or even three families...Kinda sickening depending on the situation.

I agree, it's not right to accept undeserved services from your fellow Americans. I, too, feel that the current healthcare situation is unacceptable and I suspect that the high price of healthcare and insurance has much more to do with greed on several levels than with actual costs. My husband is a contractor, so we pay for our own insurance: it's not cheap and we have a very high deductible.

But I also feel that health care is a right and not a privilege and should be taken out of the for-profit market. If it were that way, people who now cannot afford their own health insurance, whose numbers far outweigh those looking for a free ride, would seek preventative services, instead of waiting until it's too late for inexpensive remedies. It would be cheaper for all of us in the long run. A pie-in the sky dream for restructuring of the healthcare industry, I know.